Three conversations.
Three different viewpoints.
It is interesting that this is the last Dokken interview in this series because if Don Dokken and George Lynch are polar opposites, Jeff Pilson is easily the band member here who presents himself with the least amount of animosity, and consequently, the least obstructed view of what occurred. Make no mistake—if Jeff had to choose sides, his allegiance would definitely have to be with the band’s former guitarist and not the vocalist—Lynch is the only one from the group that he speaks to at this time. Sure, Pilson throws his share of jabs at Don during our conversation, but he also accepts his portion of the responsibility for the dissolution of the band. He admits to the drugs and even cops to the discussions about getting rid of Dokken that occurred in the front of the bus all the while managing to express a certain degree of remorse—more than one would expect anyway. From this dialogue, it also doesn’t seem that a Dokken reunion would be out of the question in the future for Jeff either. I mean, if George refused to rule it out, it wouldn’t be too difficult to envision Pilson someday sharing the stage with Don and company again.
Until that happens, Jeff has kept himself busy playing bass, producing various acts, and recently releasing his latest solo effort with War & Peace entitled The Walls Have Eyes. It is a record very personal to Pilson in that he was able to realize his own vision with little outside interference. The songs are straightforward and feature Jeff singing lead—something he certainly loves to do. He also managed to make time recently to be the studio bassist on Dio’s most recent offering Master of the Moon. Of course, many also remember that Pilson was musically involved and had a small role in the movie Rock Star a few years back. When he hasn’t been working, Jeff has also been learning what it’s like to be the father of a daughter who is less than one year old. What you have when you talk to Pilson is a candid person willing to reflect back on what he has done while at the same time one gets the impression that he isn’t obsessed with it and instead seems as though he is comfortable with how his career has evolved.
Here’s hoping that if there is some quality music left in this collective that they will be able to put the past aside and create something we all could enjoy throwing on the stereo. The world can always use some more good rock.
KNAC.COM: You’ve been in about a million different working environments, what was cool about basically controlling everything on the War & Peace project?
PILSON: The cool part is that you spend all of your time creating and you don’t have to do any translating. You don’t have to filter any ideas through any other channels. It’s basically just a pretty pure experience where you can just take your idea and make it happen without too much trouble. Don’t get me wrong--I love to collaborate, but there is nothing like doing something on your own and having it be creatively satisfying.
KNAC.COM: What would happen during those times when maybe you did want some objective input about a particular idea?
PILSON: I actually didn’t in this particular case.
KNAC.COM: Really?
PILSON: Yeah, not in this actual case. That would have ordinarily happened, but it didn’t here primarily because I felt like I was on a roll. Most of this stuff kind of came in a pretty pure way. Now, if that did happen though and I did feel like I needed an outside opinion, I would have had no problem bouncing it off somebody. I wouldn’t have a problem with that. In this case though, it just didn’t seem necessary. Everything just flowed.
KNAC.COM: Does that happen often where you are just so inspired creatively that you’re basically able to create something in a type of vacuum?
PILSON: It does happen. It’s just that what makes this different is that I finally had an outlet for it. Generally, especially the last few years, I’ve done a lot of writing on my own. This was just one of the few opportunities that I’ve had to see it through to becoming a finished product.
KNAC.COM: Was there any type of a problem juggling your participation on Dio’s latest album and recording The Walls Have Eyes?
PILSON: Honestly, there wasn’t a problem because they didn’t overlap at all. It was quick, and by the time I played with Dio, I had long since finished the War & Peace record. If there was anything that did overlap, it’s that I’ve been also doing a lot of producing. The War & Peace thing was something I would basically do during my time off or in the mornings or on Saturdays. That was pretty much facilitated by the fact that I can just walk downstairs and make it happen in my studio.
KNAC.COM: Is this the most fulfilling project for you primarily because you are the driving force behind it? Can any group situation compare?
PILSON: I suppose it can, but it’s a different kind of fulfillment. When you’re in a group, the buzz concerns realizing that you have just created something magical that you couldn’t have done on your own. When you are doing something on your own though, it’s like the buzz comes from the outside, and it’s like there is some magical entity outside yourself driving it. That’s a powerful feeling, but to answer your question, it can be similar with a group, but it is a different kind of buzz.
KNAC.COM: When you are playing these new songs live and have been with the tunes since their inception, how does that change the feeling you have while performing them?
PILSON: I would say that it really is different. I’m just really fortunate that in this band that I have guys that are really good about interpreting what I’ve written. They not only can interpret it, but they can take it a step farther. It isn’t like a situation where they are trying to alter the original idea or anything--they are just trying to make it better. Now, when that happens, that is kind of the ultimate buzz.
KNAC.COM: Does it take a certain amount of security on your part to lead a band while allowing the members the freedom to step outside the parameters of the written music? That isn’t always the case in other bands, is it?
PILSON: Yeah, there are a lot of ego turf wars that happen in bands on a subtle level that can stifle that process. I don’t even care if things would get rewritten if it makes the music better. It’s just great when you find people who are on the same wavelength and can communicate with what you already have.
KNAC.COM: Were these songs written during one specific time period or over the course of many years?
PILSON: Most of it was written immediately following the Lynch/Pilson record. In fact, the song “The Walls Have Eyes” was something that I had originally thought of as a Japanese bonus track for the Lynch/Pilson record. In fact, I even played it for George, and he dug the song, but then we ended up deciding that it would just be easier to release the domestic record with one less song, so there you go. What happened was that I just kept writing right after the Lynch/Pilson record because I was so inspired because that was a really strong collaborative album, so I just kept going. Most of the material happened right after that.
KNAC.COM: Yeah, George made it sound pretty positive as well.
PILSON: What we found out more than anything was that our chemistry had grown and that over the years it had sort of solidified into something that much more powerful. That is true even with the years we spent apart. I think that just attests to our true chemistry. Hopefully, we’ll do another record together in the future, and when we do, I know it will be great because of that. It was just so much fun because George and I are friends, so that just helps make it an extremely positive experience.
KNAC.COM: You’ve basically grown up with the guy.
PILSON: Yeah, and we’ve gone through some experiences that are huge parts of our lives. It definitely makes for a closeness that is hard to describe.
KNAC.COM: Did the fact that Mick [Brown] and Don [Dokken] are so close strengthen your relationship with George? I mean, I don’t imagine that you talk to them every day or anything.
PILSON: Uh, no.
KNAC.COM: Of course, that would make George the only person that you could talk to about certain events that occurred during that time, right?
PILSON: Yeah, he’s actually the only guy I talk to from that time at the moment. That is just because our friendship has developed and evolved. George and I talk every couple of weeks or so.
KNAC.COM: I guess that would be the hardest part of a band breaking up though—it’s like you share all these experiences, and then, if the band breaks up on negative terms, it isolates the group from each other and from the people most able to relate to their past.
PILSON: People kind of have a way of seeing things through their own filter. It’s nice when you can relate with someone who has a similar filter. [Laughs]
KNAC.COM: Speaking sort of about that, what was your expectation for your participation in the move Rock Star? Were you ever thinking of a career in film?
PILSON: Honestly, when I got involved it was on the music side, so I wasn’t even expecting to be in the film at first. They had just basically asked me to play bass on the soundtrack. After the director watched us rehearse though, he liked what he saw, and I was offered the part. It was a pleasant surprise. I would say that because of that, my expectations were on the lower side. Of course, I wish the movie would have done better, but coming out on September 9th, 2001 and two days before the biggest catastrophe in American history took a little of the momentum out of it. Again, I didn’t have real high expectations to start with, so… that being said, it has done well on the HBO/ home rental thing. It was more about the experience for me, and it was very positive. There was always a part of me that had always thought about being in the movies. Getting to be in something like this that was so positive--even the regular actors who were working on the set told us that the vibe on that particular movie was better than most. The director was an amazing guy who wanted to keep everyone active and involved. He was always asking questions and was open to our input. Everyone was just about fun, and it was a great closure to a lifelong dream of mine of being in the movies. Did I have big expectations of being an actor? No, not really. I understood that I was just playing myself in this movie. It would be fun to be in other ones, but I wasn’t really expecting that of this movie.
KNAC.COM: So… if someone were to say, “Jeff Pilson left Dokken to become a movie star.” That would be incorrect?
PILSON: Yeah definitely. It couldn’t be further from the truth.
KNAC.COM: See, I have to ask because I’ve heard that one before--I won’t say from where, but I’ll bet you can guess!
PILSON: [Laughs] No, I never had that expectation.
KNAC.COM: Do you think that the movie experience was that much better for you because it was a positive working environment whereas maybe on the music side of things, the relationships were getting a bit strained?
PILSON: Probably. I always recognized though that I was a musician. With acting, there is just so much tedium involved. Even if you are the star of the show, there is a lot of sitting around in the trailer. I’m kind of an antsy guy who likes to do things all the time. The great part of this for me was just that I was walking into a situation that was so professional. It made some of my other experiences look… unproductive--if you know what I mean.
KNAC.COM: Well, it seems like everyone involved in Dokken would admit to a certain amount of deterioration that just kept getting progressively worse.
PILSON: That is especially true of after the movie when I went back and we did the Poison tour. That was just a pretty unpleasant experience all the way around. You know, I’m not going to lie about it--Don was in a different state of mind, and he was in a really strange headspace. It made for a really unpleasant tour.
KNAC.COM: Do you think there was some resentment about you doing the movie? Do you think he wished it had been him?
PILSON: [Laughs] Yeah, there’s no question there was a certain degree of that. I mean, that’s when Don decided he was going to become the ultimate video director for Dokken, and he was going to direct all these videos. God bless him--at least he tried to be productive with it. Do I think there was some resentment on a certain level? Sure.
KNAC.COM: Another point of contention seems to be the belief that you were never satisfied being the bassist of Dokken. Was there a part of you that was unhappy that you weren’t the front man?
PILSON: Honestly--not. I do love to sing. Don’t get me wrong on that, and I still love being in situations though where I don’t sing. I loved playing with Ronnie Dio, and I loved the fact that he was singing. I did a Foreigner show not too long ago--
KNAC.COM: Really?
PILSON: Yeah, I was in Foreigner for a minute.
KNAC.COM: Which songs did you play?
PILSON: All the hits! C’mon!
KNAC.COM: So you were out there doing “Jukebox Hero” and the whole bit?
PILSON: Yeah, we did a show in Santa Barbara a few months ago, and it was a blast. I’m hoping that more come along because it was so much fun.
KNAC.COM: Were you playing bass exclusively or were you doing vocals as well?
PILSON: We sang backgrounds, too. It was amazing. Even as much as I love to sing, I would never say that I resented Don being the front man, but what I resented was the attitude that he had and the way he tried to take credit for some things he didn’t do. I also resented the way he kind of conducted himself within the band. He always kind of played the odd man out and made himself the odd man out in the band. That I resented because I thought it was very destructive. We all had our faults and did our share of things wrong, but I never resented him being the singer. I knew the parameters of the band when I first joined. There was no question about that. It’s like I say, I love being in situations where I don’t sing because I love to play as much as I love to sing.
KNAC.COM: And you guys did enjoy some success.
PILSON: Yeah, but when it comes to the ego--
KNAC.COM: It just accentuated it?
PILSON: That’s right, but honestly it just came down to the fact that I always wished that we felt like a real four way band, and we never did. If there was any resentment there, it was that. Let me add that it wasn’t all Don’s fault either, but he was one of the guys that put off a vibe that made it impossible for us to be the type of truly tight knit band that we never were.
KNAC.COM: One of the other issues that appears to still bother Don concerns his assertion that he would try to sleep in one of the bunks on the bus while the rest of the band was plotting to get rid of him.
PILSON: Yeah, and he’s told me about that, and it’s true. Really, I can’t blame him for being really, really upset about it. In the end though, I think that was us talking drug talk more than anything else.
KNAC.COM: Yeah, but don’t you think people often let some of their real feelings out when they’re drunk or high? I mean, that’s the part that would bother me if I were him.
PILSON: The problem is really that it never really felt like a team like it should have. That is especially true back in those days when it felt like the three of us verses him a lot of the time. As much as we were wrong for saying some of the things we said--that apparently he did hear--he was wrong for the way he conducted himself that made us want to say those things.
KNAC.COM: Why do you think he didn’t confront you guys at the time or even the next day?
PILSON: I think it was a little bit of pride and discomfort--I totally understand that. Don has a much softer side than what he lets on sometimes. I do really feel bad about when that happened though. They were isolated incidents, but they still feel bad about them.
KNAC.COM: Couldn’t any one of you make a case though for being unappreciated or feeling as if the band wasn’t viable for you in some way?
PILSON: That’s right.
KNAC.COM: How was it working with Dio then? I mean, you hear all kinds of things about nearly any assertive vocalist who has been around for a while. With Dio, you have a guy like Vivian Campbell consistently asserting that Ronnie isn’t the person everyone believes he is. What was your experience like?
PILSON: I never found Ronnie to be difficult. I’ve heard stories about it, but I didn’t find it to be true for me at all.
KNAC.COM: Was that an issue you had to deal with in your mind before you agreed to play on the record?
PILSON: No, because Ronnie has always been a friend. By the time I joined Dio in ‘93, I had already known him for ten years. Because of that, it was never an issue. Once I joined, we got along great, and the chemistry was great. I didn’t find him to be difficult at all. He’s just persistent in what he does, and I love that because I’m the same way. He’s a perfectionist. I’m a perfectionist. I think we enjoyed pushing things to see how far we could take something. I always feel a magic working with Ronnie, but I also feel it when working with Vinnie as well. The whole Dio thing just felt really, really magical. I would just say that it was only positive. I say that even though the writing had already been done by the time they approached me. When you start with a great skeleton of a record and just put musicians with chemistry around it, it’s only going to make it great.
KNAC.COM: Were you allowed that latitude to improve certain aspects of the music? Did you feel free to do that?
PILSON: Yeah, I’ve always been allowed that latitude, but on this record, it really wasn’t necessary. It was all very much together when I heard it. It was just a really great, rare thing.
KNAC.COM: Why did you choose to redo Dokken’s “Walk Away” as your European bonus track for War & Peace?
PILSON: When they requested a bonus track for Europe, I had already submitted the entire record, and I felt very much at peace with it. It just felt like a finished body of work. When they asked though, this song was the one that went through my head. It just happened naturally and seemed like a very suitable song.
KNAC.COM: The placement of that tune always seemed really strange to me because it comes at the end of Beast From the East. It’s like the recording of a concert and then--A BONUS TRACK! Did you guys intend for that to happen or did you ever consider putting it on a regular studio album?
PILSON: It was specifically worked up for the live album, but we had originally wanted three new songs, but we only finished one in the end. It just kind of is what it is.
KNAC.COM: You have a section of your website where it says “Email Jeff”--what do you normally receive through that?
PILSON: Kind of what you’d expect, I guess. You get a lot of longtime fans or people who stumble across the website. I get a lot of musicians asking me questions as well--a lot of technical stuff. Mostly I just get a lot of people who were fans or have been longtime fans and they just want to express their thanks.
KNAC.COM: You don’t get any freaks? C’mon! Those are the best ones.
PILSON: That’s true, but I’ll bet if you take a guy like Marilyn Manson--I’ll bet he really gets the wackjobs.
KNAC.COM: Yeah, I’ll bet that particular realm of cyberspace isn’t any place you’d want to live.
PILSON: That’s safe to say.
KNAC.COM: Let me also ask you about something George alluded to on VH-1, and that concerns a video camera that was allegedly placed in the back of the Dokken tour bus. Lynch said that when certain activities were going on in the lounge area back there, that those in the front were able to view the entire scene on a television in the front. Uh, do you remember this at all?
PILSON: Oh yeah. [Laughs] I know that we all recall that.
KNAC.COM: Was this a regular occurrence?
PILSON: YYYEEESSS!! We were known for that, are you kidding?
KNAC.COM: Do you think a girl would have to be really naïve/not that bright to not pick up on this? Or did they just not care?
PILSON: Well, it wasn’t that obvious because at the time people were shocked that we could even do that. What was really funny was when a girl would go from the back of the bus, and they would walk to the front with this really big attitude like they thought they were really cool. We’d just all be grinning.
We called it the “Attitude Buster.”
KNAC.COM: Not to incriminate yourself or anything, but… I’m sure there couldn’t be any video of any of this still in existence now could there?
PILSON: I have no idea. [Laughs]
KNAC.COM: I know you had a daughter recently, and I’m wondering if that has altered the way you perceive certain events in your past.
PILSON: For one thing, when we had this child, we’d been married for a couple of years. I’ve been with my wife for four. Honestly, I slowed down in that department a long time ago. I mean, I had a little rekindling of it in the late ‘90s version of Dokken. I had a few years where I kind of got those last wild oats out, but by the time I met my wife and settled down, I was really ready to do so. That being the case, having a daughter just seems like a natural extension of that. The question to me seems to be, “How are you going to be eleven and a half years from now when she’s going to shows?”
KNAC.COM: Exactly--that’s what I was getting at--you‘re going to know precisely what’s going on through each of those little guy’s heads when they come over to pick up your daughter.
PILSON: That’s right, but the way I figure it is that I’ll be one step ahead of these little schmucks! It’ll all work out though.
Click here for Kerby's previous interview with Don Dokken
Click here for Kerby's previous interview with George Lynch
